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Wednesday, October 31, 2007

Indoctrination 101

[Update-] The University of Delaware has removed all publicly available links to the program’s content. Thanks to Jason Steck from The Van Der GaliĆ«n Gazette, for the email alerting us. Go read about it.... Via another email from Emily it seems that President of U. of Del. has called for the immediate elimination of this program. I will update with a supporting link s soon as it is available.....VERIFIED, Hat tip to Hot Air[End Update]

"Something's wrong with the world today, I don't know what it is. Something's wrong with our eyes. I'm seein' things in a different way and God knows it ain't his. It sure ain't no surprise..." Aerosmith


Atlas Shrugged


"Capitalism demands the best of every man – his rationality – and rewards him accordingly. It leaves every man free to choose the work he likes, to specialize in it, to trade his product for the products of others, and to go as far on the road of achievement as his ability and ambition will carry him." Ayn Rand.


There is a quote that is used several times in Rand's novel, Atlas Shrugged, used by several characters throughout the book: "There is something wrong with the world." I tend to agree. Like the characters in the book, first published in 1957, I see a general decay in the world around me today as I travel and work. I see people who frankly just don't give a damn; not about their work, or how well they do their work, not about the way they look, not about the conditions in which they live...not about anything. This isn't limited to any one race, any one sex, any one segment of social standing. My work puts me in contact with people from all walks of life, and the decay is there, in all but one segment of society: older people. It begins with people my age, those in their forties; a general lack of self-respect and contempt for others, a sullen resignation to things. With the next generation down, there is not only the lack of self-respect and contempt, but a blatant embracing of such attitudes. Think I'm wrong? Look around you at what you see when you walk out the door tomorrow. How many well dressed, well groomed twenty somethings do you see? How many overweight young people (and I'll confess here that I'm certainly no John Basedow, far from it, but self-realization comes from reflection upon one's self and reflection of the mirror, as it were.)

I'm going to let you in on a little secret. Ready? It's a shocker. Those who don't respect themselves can have no respect for others.


I can't exactly pin point an exact period in time when it began. Perhaps it's always been there, just under the surface, festering, growing, a malignancy upon the collective soul of mankind. Some who see problems and have concerns are more than willing to point their fingers at the flower power generation, the free love society, the "dawning of the age of Aquarius."

I'm not so sure.

What I DO know is this, and I've said it for a long time now, starting before my soiree into the field of education, and more critically after I walked away from the field in utter disgust at the entire system. Our children are being indoctrinated. OUR generation was indoctrinated. I would dare say that our PARENTS were indoctrinated to some degree as well.

There are phases to this indoctrination; I'm going to touch on just a few of them. I hope in doing so that I may spark some recognition within you to see them, and that we can all begin to start undoing some of the damage that has already been done.

BOURGEOISIE

The first I'll mention is the vilification of industry and corporations. I don't even see the need to cite any references for this one, as it's so heavily prevalent in the attitude of the American worker and the American media. Anyone who makes money, anyone who generates a means by which others make money, is under fire. How many of you would like to be Bill Gates? How many out there would like to hold stock in Halliburton? Exxon? In fact, the only corporate giant who seemed to be able to win the love of the American people in the past several years was Sam Walton. Or Oprah Winfrey.

But Oprah CARES. She CRIES and she TOUCHES us...

Bah.

But how did Sam Walton amass his fortune? He WORKED for it. He used his mind and his abilities. He competed. He did what he needed to do and he reaped the benefits of his labor. How, then, is he different from Gates and Trump and any other mogul you may want to name? He isn't. Each one of these people has worked for the position that they have attained and have been successful in doing so.

But if we are to listen to SOME in our society, they have no right to enjoy what they have worked for. They have to share. It's not right for people to be wealthy. According to one caller in to the Steve Gill Show yesterday, anyone making over $200,000.00 a year should have to pay one hundred percent tax on anything OVER that mark.

SARGE WANTS TO TAX PEOPLE EARNING OVER $200,000 AT $100%.
October 30, 2007 - 09:19

A West Tennessee caller suggested today that taxing the super rich folks who earn over $200,000 should pay 100% of their income above that level as taxes because anybody with that much money has "made enough." The "evil" top 1% of earners in this country already pay 40% of the total federal income tax burden, but Sarge and the Democrats think they are "taking" too much without paying their fair share...


Do you think you're paying enough in taxes? Or do you agree with Charlie Rangel that you should be paying more of your hard earned money in as taxes?

WHO IS BURIED IN GRANT'S TOMB?

Two more from Ayn Rand:

"What objectivity and the study of philosophy requires is not an 'open mind,' but an active mind - a mind able and eagerly willing to examine ideas, but to examine them critically."

"In order to live, man must act; in order to act, he must make choices; in order to make choices, he must define a code of values; in order to define a code of values, he must know what he is and where he is – i.e. he must know his own nature (including his means of knowledge) and the nature of the universe in which he acts – i.e. he needs metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, which means: philosophy. He cannot escape from this need; his only alternative is whether the philosophy guiding him is to be chosen by his mind or by chance."

I've written before about revisionist history and my strong stance against it. School should be a place for learning HOW to think, not what to think. History, philosophy, civics, mathematics, and language skills. We've allowed politically correct thinking and mindset to infiltrate our "social studies" programs.

Case in point: during my senior year in high school, one of my teachers presented our class (I won't mention the name of the teacher or which class was being taught) with a "documentary" on the conditions of the children in Ethiopia. This was the mid-80's, the conditions in Ethiopia were civil war, famine, and plague. I can't remember which group had sent him the film, UNICEF if I'm not mistaken, but it only showed the starvation and the hunger of the citizenry. The entire classroom had felt the tugs of the heartstrings. I raised my hand and asked "what about the reports of the army (communist regime at the time) confiscating all incoming shipments of food and using it to feed the troops instead of the people?" Stunned silence on the part of my teacher. I was the only senior male in the room, I was already enlisted in the army, and was keeping an eye on potential hot spots that I might be deployed to during my time in service. I don't recall anyone stepping forward to contribute any money for the Ethiopian cause that day.

Why is this important, you ask? I made a point NEVER, EVER, to let my political opinions or my "causes" infiltrate my classroom setting, and I was a teacher of history and government. It's unprofessional, it's improper, and in my mind, it's unethical. Had he presented the facts of the situation, that there was a war in Ethiopia, that people were starving, that UNICEF was taking donations, that the government was not allowing the people access to the food that was being sent, blah blah blah blah BLAH, I would have no problem with it.

My problem was with the "agenda."

Education is filled with people with an "agenda" today. That's one reason our schools are turning out graduates who think two plus two equals five, and that "cat" is spelled k-a-t.

This brings us to another point in our look into indoctrination; the agenda that makes whites responsible for all the suffering and hardship of the world, thus making them the modern "bourgeoisie" for our budding communist generation. Let us first revisit the Communist Manifesto to read what it has to say:

The distinguishing feature of communism is not the abolition of property generally, but the abolition of bourgeois property. But modern bourgeois private property is the final and most complete expression of the system of producing and appropriating products that is based on class antagonisms, on the exploitation of the many by the few.

In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property.

We Communists have been reproached with the desire of abolishing the right of personally acquiring property as the fruit of a man's own labor, which property is alleged to be the groundwork of all personal freedom, activity and independence.


In the time of Marx and Engles, the bourgeoisie would have been today's Trumps, Gates, and so forth. Today, it's an association of guilt for being white because of the actions in the past of our European ancestors. I suppose that for someone like myself, of mixed European and American Indian heritage, that I should feel a special self loathing for myself because part of my ancestors were mean to other parts of my ancestors? Do you see how ridiculous that sounds? Yet and still in Delaware, we have a situation at a PUBLIC UNIVERSITY where they are being indoctrinated with such racist attitudes against whites. Hat tip to Hot Air for this:

University of Delaware Requires Students to Undergo Ideological Reeducation

October 30, 2007

FIRE Press Release
NEWARK, Del., October 30, 2007—The University of Delaware subjects students in its residence halls to a shocking program of ideological reeducation that is referred to in the university’s own materials as a “treatment” for students’ incorrect attitudes and beliefs. The Orwellian program requires the approximately 7,000 students in Delaware’s residence halls to adopt highly specific university-approved views on issues ranging from politics to race, sexuality, sociology, moral philosophy, and environmentalism. The Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) is calling for the total dismantling of the program, which is a flagrant violation of students’ rights to freedom of conscience and freedom from compelled speech.

“The University of Delaware’s residence life education program is a grave intrusion into students’ private beliefs,” FIRE President Greg Lukianoff said. “The university has decided that it is not enough to expose its students to the values it considers important; instead, it must coerce its students into accepting those values as their own. At a public university like Delaware, this is both unconscionable and unconstitutional.”

The university’s views are forced on students through a comprehensive manipulation of the residence hall environment, from mandatory training sessions to “sustainability” door decorations. Students living in the university’s eight housing complexes are required to attend training sessions, floor meetings, and one-on-one meetings with their Resident Assistants (RAs). The RAs who facilitate these meetings have received their own intensive training from the university, including a “diversity facilitation training” session at which RAs were taught, among other things, that “[a] racist is one who is both privileged and socialized on the basis of race by a white supremacist (racist) system. The term applies to all white people (i.e., people of European descent) living in the United States, regardless of class, gender, religion, culture or sexuality.”

The university suggests that at one-on-one sessions with students, RAs should ask intrusive personal questions such as “When did you discover your sexual identity?” Students who express discomfort with this type of questioning often meet with disapproval from their RAs, who write reports on these one-on-one sessions and deliver these reports to their superiors. One student identified in a write-up as an RA’s “worst” one-on-one session was a young woman who stated that she was tired of having “diversity shoved down her throat.”

According to the program’s materials, the goal of the residence life education program is for students in the university’s residence halls to achieve certain “competencies” that the university has decreed its students must develop in order to achieve the overall educational goal of “citizenship.” These competencies include: “Students will recognize that systemic oppression exists in our society,” “Students will recognize the benefits of dismantling systems of oppression,” and “Students will be able to utilize their knowledge of sustainability to change their daily habits and consumer mentality.”

At various points in the program, students are also pressured or even required to take actions that outwardly indicate their agreement with the university’s ideology, regardless of their personal beliefs. Such actions include displaying specific door decorations, committing to reduce their ecological footprint by at least 20%, taking action by advocating for an “oppressed” social group, and taking action by advocating for a “sustainable world...”

Um, right. I thought we were supposed to be trying to STOP racist attitudes, not turn them around on white people?

"Guilt is a rope that wears thin." Ayn Rand.

The expected reply from the university:

October 31, 2007

Samantha K. Harris
Director of Legal and Public Advocacy
Foundation for Individual Rights in Education

Dear Ms. Harris,

Thank you for your letter to President Patrick Harker dated October 29, 2007 detailing your concerns about the University of Delaware’s residence life educational program. I appreciate your commitment to the role of free speech in education. Though we may articulate views quite differently, a commitment to free speech is one we share. As noted in our own literature, “the central mission of the University of Delaware is to cultivate both learning and the free exchange of ideas.”

Your letter asserts a number of conclusions that can be supported by a selective citation of documents, but are not actualized. The idea that students are “required to adopt university approved views” on the issues listed is not a goal of this institution or of the residence life department. This type of goal is both highly undesired and wholly unattainable. Students are challenged to express themselves as free-thinking citizens. The indoctrination you speak of serves no educational purpose and does not exist as part of a systematic effort on this campus. I assume that you have noted the absence of any policy, rule, or regulation pertaining to your concerns about disciplinary action being taken against students for unwillingness to be changed in the manner that you describe.

There is in fact a program within the residence halls that engages students in self –examination of the roles they hope to take in society. This effort is consistent with the mission of the University which states, “Our graduates should know how to reason critically and independently…communicate clearly in writing and speech, and develop into informed citizens and leaders.” The program is designed to encourage students to think about and to consider a number of issues, but all make their own decisions about the outcome of this reflection. FIRE’s assertion that students are told what to think is inaccurate. In common with FIRE, our institution values free speech, active voice, and open dialogue. We believe that students learn and grow in part by engaging in significant discussions on both sides of the classroom door.

I do acknowledge that there have been some missteps with the implementation of our program. This is a new effort involving over two hundred staff. As with any University educational endeavor assessment and feedback measures have been established to identify issues or concerns. Each of the issues FIRE presents are currently under review. In fact, we recently became aware that students in several residence halls were told their participation is mandatory at these activities and we have taken steps to clarify this misconception and to notify students of their rights in this area.

Additionally, I would like to briefly comment on several of the other concerns expressed in your letter.

* The information about "best and worst" RA/resident one-on-ones are certainly of concern, but taken out of context. This terminology has only been used by supervisors to ask Resident Assistants to reflect on their facilitation skills and never to describe students or the outcome of a conversation.

* Students are not required to participate in any residential activity, educational program, or to maintain the University provided nametag on their door. We do, however, encourage students to participate in as many experiences as they are able as we believe this enhances their life at the University.

* We share your concern about the language used in our assessment plan. The term “treatment” is commonly used in research and assessment literature. Admittedly, this language is easily misinterpreted and may be construed as inappropriate for use in this educational setting. On the other hand, your assertion that “progress is apparently determined by examining whether there is an increasing proportion of ‘right’ answers over time” is not an accurate way to describe the aim of the program or assessment goals.

I have tremendous respect for the ability of our students as well as their emotional and intellectual capacity. My main point of contention out of the multiple assertions is that the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education seems to presume that our students are so empty-headed and ignorant that they would be "indoctrinated" with ease. I believe you have underestimated the quality and caliber of our students. You have examined many internal and public documents in your search for concerns. I invite you to explore our web site more fully to get a better picture of the capacity of a University of Delaware student. You will find that they are highly intelligent and capable to assert their viewpoints and to face challenges from a variety of areas. Our students are fully able to encounter multiple values and perspectives and remain true to their own identity. As they emerge from college, their ability to use their free speech rights will be only one of many talents they possess. While I consider many of your points to be open for legitimate discussion and debate, the supposition that University of Delaware students are simply empty vessels to be filled by any willing authority figure is an unstated assertion where we can find no common ground...

Yadda yadda yadda. As I said, the expected reply from the university.

Let's see what the rest of you think. From the University of Delaware website:

Diversity Initiatives
Diversity Vision Statement

"The Office of Residence Life, within its offices and its residence halls, will become a place where diversity among people is recognized, valued and demonstrated. Racism, sexism, heterosexism, ageism, ableism and other behaviors and systems that empower some while oppressing others will not be tolerated. Programs, policies, and procedures will reflect the importance and acceptance of diversity. Actions that encourage and promote diversity will be valued and rewarded."
Diversity Committee Information

The Office of Residence Life Diversity Committee is a group of professional staff members and graduate assistants working to encourage and support the diversity vision of the Office of Residence Life by integrating diversity values into all aspects of the department culture. The committee coordinates the campus-wide diversity efforts of the Office of Residence Life and supports the many other diversity programs offered by Residence Life staff to residents on a complex, building, or floor community level. The Diversity committee develops diversity training modules for all levels of Residence Life staff and coordinates initiatives such as the Unity Project and Multicultural Leadership Retreat. For more information please contact Michele Kane, Assistant Director for Residence Education and Chair of the Diversity Committee at michelon@udel.edu.
Multicultural Leadership Retreat
Unity Project

Whole New World Training
Minority Student Network

The Minority Student Network (MSN) provides a social network and support system for students of color living on East Campus but is open to all. The group provides programs, trips, hot topic discussions, and social gathering for students. For more information contact the MSN advisor, Ivet Ziegelbauer.
LEAP

Quest plans, sponsors, and supports diversity programming on campus. The group is comprised of Residence Life staff and residence hall students committed to diversity issues. Quest projects include initiatives like the monthly Being Educated About Diversity (BEAD) Project, the Diversity Film Series and Black History Month Task Force. Quest also actively supports diversity programming on campus. The Graduate Assistant for Diversity Initiatives is the advisor for Quest . For more information about Quest, please contact Michele Kane at michelon@udel.edu.


Did you catch that "Whole New World Training" segment? The title alone speaks volumes, in my way of thinking.

DON'T GIVE TIL IT HURTS, GIVE TIL IT FEELS GOOD...

A great part of the problem, I think, is the altruistic mindset that is pervading the world today. You see it everywhere. Volunteer to help do this, pitch in a hand to help do that. There is NOTHING wrong with pitching in and giving a hand to others, as long as it doesn't become the be all, end all of your existance.

What is altruism?

Altruism is selfless concern for the welfare of others. It is a traditional virtue in many cultures, and central to many religious traditions. In English, this idea was often described as the Golden rule of ethics. Some newer philosophies such as egoism have criticized the concept, with writers such as Nietzsche arguing that there is no moral obligation to help others.

Altruism can be distinguished from a feeling of loyalty and duty. Altruism focuses on a motivation to help others or a want to do good without reward, while duty focuses on a moral obligation towards a specific individual (for example, God, a king), a specific organization (for example, a government), or an abstract concept (for example, patriotism etc). Some individuals may feel both altruism and duty, while others may not. Pure altruism is giving without regard to reward or the benefits of recognition.

The concept has a long history in philosophical and ethical thought, and has more recently become a topic for psychologists, sociologists, evolutionary biologists, and ethologists. While ideas about altruism from one field can have an impact on the other fields, the different methods and focuses of these fields lead to different perspectives on altruism.

Rand on altruism: "Altruism declares that any action taken for the benefit of others is good, and any action taken for one's own benefit is evil. Thus the beneficiary of an action is the only criterion of moral value – and so long as that beneficiary is anybody than oneself, anything goes."

Indoctrination of our youth has even reached to the point of coming to them across the television. Nickelodeon television has entered into this trend by using children to show other children how to "stand up to the man." Hat tip to ArmyWifeToddlerMom, Michelle Malkin, and STOP the ACLU for this one:

Nickelodeon is trying to brainwash your children in the morning, or a leftist primer
My Husband sent me this link this morning. Please watch this, in its entirety. It is imperative that you SEE what Nickelodeon is showing at 5:00am.

NICKELODEON IS BRAINWASHING YOUR CHILD

Linda Ellerbee is the host, that should be enough said.

Pay particular attention to the second and fourth stories.

This Nickelodeon "news program", is not a news program. It is a leftist primer on how to be a "left-wing radical REBEL".

I am not a blind follower of our Government, and I also think that Government should be watched by it's citizens. It is our civic duty.

However this program led by Ellerby, is anti-war, anti- GWOT, anti-military.

This "news program" is not about people changing the World around them.

Ms. Ellerby uses leftist propaganda buzz words like "taking on the establishment".

She shows a group of "tweenagers" walking around in orange jumpsuits, hooded and yelling from a bullhorn. "We are not ok, with people being tortured by American soldiers!" "Are cooperation's priority over human lives?"

There is also a call for the impeachment of the President in the second segment of the video, "democracy is at stake because of the President violating the Constitution".

The fourth segment of video shows another tweenager, who has put together a video of wounded Iraqi children, with the song Jesus Loves Me playing over it. This teenager blames America, the military, for what is happening in Iraq. This young girl says "she finds, videos and facts on the Internet" to show what is REALLY happening in Iraq. I am guessing she is getting these images from Al Jazeera.

Nickelodeon is the new training ground for leftist propaganda.


Amazing. You really must watch this video...

Children making anti-establishment statements. It brings to mind something said by someone back in the 1950's (surprise, it's not Ayn Rand this time):

Soviet premier Nikita Khrushchev famously used an expression generally translated into English as "We will bury you!" ("ŠœŃ‹ вас похороним!", transliterated as My vas pokhoronim!) while addressing Western ambassadors at a reception in Moscow in November, 1956.[1] The translation has been controversial because it was presented out of context as being belligerent. The phrase may well have been intended to mean the Soviet Union would outlast the West, as a more complete version of the quote reads: "Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will bury you"(ŠŃ€Š°Š²ŠøŃ‚ŃŃ вам или нет, но ŠøŃŃ‚Š¾Ń€ŠøŃ на нашей стороне. ŠœŃ‹ вас похороним)—a meaning more akin to "we will attend your funeral" than "we shall cause your funeral".

Several online sources incorrectly claim that he made this statement at the United Nations General Assembly on October 11, 1960, when he is said to have pounded the table with his shoe, or with an extra shoe he had brought with him explicitly for that purpose. [2] (Occasionally these incorrect reports give the date October 12, the date this incident was reported in most newspapers.)

Speaking some years later in Yugoslavia, Khrushchev himself remarked, "I once said, 'We will bury you,' and I got into trouble with it. Of course we will not bury you with a shovel. Your own working class will bury you", [3] a nod to the popular Marxist saying, "The proletariat is the undertaker of capitalism." Khrushchev later went on to explain that socialism would replace capitalism in the same manner that capitalism itself supplanted feudalism. (This is an orthodox view of Marx's theory of history.)

It would seem that his prediction has been put into practice. I can't imagine these children doing this for Nickelodeon without the approval and permission of their parents. But then again there are a lot of things children do that are done without their parents approval today that sometimes leave me wondering at the fitness of the parents...

"When you come to a fork in the road....Take it." Yogi Berra.

The bottom line is this. We are reaching an ideological crossroads. If our society is to survive, we must truly do as the title of this blogsite says and WAKE UP, AMERICA!

The freedoms we love and cherish today are not free. They have been bought and paid for with the price of the blood of patriots; of men and women who believed in freedom and in the rights of the individual. That fight continues today. Like it or not, agree with what you think the motives might be or not, that fight continues today in the sands of the Middle East. We are under assault not just by Islamic jihadists, but by a mindset within our own nation that the greater good outweighs the needs and rights of the individual. And that mindset is choking the will out of the American people. It suffocates the spirit of creativity. It stifles individual achievement.

We complain that our jobs, our factories, our manufacturing, have gone overseas, and yet we put in office the very people who tax our producers to the point they are driven to take their industries overseas. Why? Because it isn't fair that one person should make more money than someone else.

We leave our borders open so that millions upon millions of illegal aliens have entered our country and we see our own culture diluted and diminished. Why? Because the evil white men have oppressed the rest of the world, and it isn't fair.

Our children graduate from high school unable to cope, compete, or function in society. They can no longer rely on industry for work because we've created a situation where there is little industry, or what industry there is has hired cheap labor from a growing pool of illegals. Why? Because it's more important that our children be taught their self worth based upon what they can do for others so that they'll feel good, rather than teaching them the importance of diligence and self worth through their own accomplishments.

Why do we do these things?

Because we have become inverted.

But we can not live in an inverted world.

"The world you desired can be won, it exists, it is real, it is possible, it's yours. But to win it requires total dedication and a total break with the world of your past, with the doctrine that man is sacrificial animal who exists for the pleasure of others. Fight for the value of your person. Fight for the virtue of your pride. Fight for the essence, which is man, for his sovereign rational mind. Fight with the radiant certainty and the absolute rectitude of knowing that yours is the morality of life and yours is the battle for any achievement, any value, any grandeur, any goodness, any joy that has ever existed on this earth." John Galt quote that ended Ayn Rand's last public speech (New Orleans Nov 1981)
HCDL

Once and Always, an American Fighting Man

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Rick Sanchez Takes on Fred Phelps, Founder of Westboro Cult: Video

I added this as an update to the previous post announcing that Albert Snyder of York, Pa., the father of a Westminster Marine who was killed in Iraq, today won his case in a Baltimore federal court against members of Topeka, Kan.-based Westboro Baptist Church who protested at his son's funeral last year.

Mr. Snyder has been awarded $10.9 million dollars.

Via Hot Air, Rick Sanchez takes on the crazy Fred Phelps, founder of the Westboro cult, video:

This video deserves its own post though of Fred Phelps having himself a hissy at Rick Sanchez because he lost the lawsuit.



Poor thing sounds upset. Not half as upset as the poor families that try to bury their family members in peace just have this insane cult leaders disrupt the funerals and turn them into a circus.

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Ron Paul Illegal Botnet Voters

The other day we spoke a bit about the UAB findings about illegal Ron Paul spammers.

Today we see it wasn't only UAB (University of Alabama at Birmingham)spam team that is working on this or noticing the trend.

McAfee is also talking about it.

...Imagine my surprise when I’m greeted by this lot over the weekend:

Subject: Ron Paul Eliminates The IRS!

Subject: Iraq Scam Exposed, Ron Paul

Subject: IRS Fears Ron Paul?

Subject: Ron Paul Wins GOP Debate!

Subject: Ron Paul Exposes Federal Reserve

Etc.

They all linked YouTube searches for “ron paul” which results in the usual electoral propaganda you’d expect 372 days before an election.

Later in the day it changed however. With the usual addition of bayes poison, randomness in the subject lines and a tinyurl and no doubt some additional sending resources since they just burned a load, this campaign moved up a gear.

Subject: Ron Paul Wins GOP Debate! ydB

Subject: Ron Paul Wins GOP Debate! XZHMuk

Subject: Iraq Scam Exposed, Ron Paul qCnUa

Subject: IRS Fears Ron Paul? edukDy

Subject: Who Is Ron Paul? lyI

Subject: Ron Paul Stops Iraq War! nALGU

This is trivial stuff as I’m sure you can appreciate, but that tinyurl did catch my attention:

tinyurl 345s6g -redirects-> 301 Moved Permanently -to-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeHWW5gbc0w

This video has been removed due to terms of use violation.
Now I have no idea what that video was (and frankly dear, I don’t give a damn!) but what struck me is that this would be a really efficient way to remove your competitions videos from youtube. I’m not picking on YouTube here, I believe almost any social site would do the same.

There are 2 people I feel for in this messy situation: postmaster@*.gov and abuse@youtube.com ;)
You’ll be seeing lots of this stuff in the coming months, the most worrying of which will be the false donation solicitations and finishing with incorrect dates for actual polling day!

I wonder how many candidates have EV certs? or “security logos” on their donation sites.



From ComputerWorld:

There's no way to know whether it's being done by a misguided supporter, or by someone trying to embarrass the campaign. Wired notes that Paul's supporters tend to be a very tech-savvy bunch, and are very vocal online. Wired notes, "Some participants in the online political world have long suspected Paul's technically sophisticated fan base of manipulating online tools and polls to boost the appearance of a wide base of support."

No matter who's doing it, though, expect this to be only the beginning of online political dirty tricks by many others. When power, money, and egos are involved, things get very nasty very quickly. One way or another, it'll all show up online.


Now here is the amusing part... some of these illegal spamming emails are being used by those that spam our comment section and the comment sections of other blogs..... they are copying these illegal spam emails and pasting them directly in the comments.

Kooks beget kooks.

More from Wired News.

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Father of Slain Marine Has Enough Part #2: FATHER WINS LAWSUIT: Updated & Bumped with Video Of Phelps Having a Hissy About Judgment

[Update #2] Via Hot Air, Rick Sanchez takes on the crazy Fred Phelps, founder of the Westboro cult, video:



The guy is insane and sounds it as well as being upset that the judgment came down against hom for $10.9 million dollars!!!!



[Update]
Hat tip to Blue Crab Boulevard, punitive damages award at $8 million, added to the $2.9 million, Mr. Snyder has won and Westboro Baptist Church must pay almost $11 million dollars.

The jury first awarded $2.9 million in compensatory damages. It returned in the afternoon with its decision to award $6 million in punitive damages for invasion of privacy and $2 million for causing emotional distress.

Snyder's attorney, Craig Trebilcock, had urged jurors to determine an amount "that says don't do this in Maryland again. Do not bring your circus of hate to Maryland again."



GREAT NEWS. [End Update]

On october 25th, thanks Take Our Country Back noticing Michelle Malkin's story , we posted about the story of a father of a slain marine who filed an invasion of privacy suit against a fundamentalist church that pickets soldiers' funerals, Westboro Baptist Church, run by the Phelps family.

The father of a Marine killed in Iraq took the stand today in his invasion of privacy suit against a fundamentalist church that pickets soldiers' funerals, saying protesters carrying signs at his son's burial made him sick to his stomach.

Albert Snyder said he had hoped for a private funeral for his son, Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder.

"They turned this funeral into a media circus and they wanted to hurt my family," Snyder testified. "They wanted their message heard and they didn't care who they stepped over. My son should have been buried with dignity, not with a bunch of clowns outside."


Hat Tip to Michelle Malkin, we see that Albert Snyder of York, Pa, the father of that slain solider has won his lawsuit against Westboro Baptist Church.

From the Baltimore Sun:

Albert Snyder of York, Pa., the father of a Westminster Marine who was killed in Iraq, today won his case in a Baltimore federal court against members of Topeka, Kan.-based Westboro Baptist Church who protested at his son's funeral last year.

The jury of five women and four men awarded Snyder $2.9 million in compensatory damages. The amount of punitive damages to be awarded has not yet been decided. The jury deliberated for about two hours yesterday and much of today.

Snyder was the first in the nation to attempt to hold members of Westboro Baptist Church legally liable for their shock protests at military funerals after the church protested the military's inclusion of gays at the funeral of Lance Cpl. Matthew A. Snyder, a 2003 Westminster High School graduate who died March 3, 2006, in a vehicle accident in Anbar province.

In June 2006, Snyder sued the tight-knit fundamentalist Christian church and three of its members individually. The father argued that Westboro's demonstrations exacerbated his pain and suffering in March 2006 while he mourned the death of his only son.

Specifically, he charged that they violated his privacy, intentionally inflicted emotional harm and engaged in a conspiracy to carry out their activities. The jury decided in Snyder's favor on every count.

The church and its members maintained that they did nothing wrong. They based their legal defense on the First Amendment, arguing that their protests were constitutionally protected. Their attorneys told jurors yesterday that Westboro members were expressing closely held religious beliefs about an immoral society, including the military, that has endorsed homosexuality.


From MM:

The Synder website has legal documents from the case here. Send him a note of congratulations and thanks here.

The fight’s not over.



After originally posting about this story and lawsuit, I went to the website run by the Westboro Baptist Church, called, GOD HATES FAGS, and found it filled with such hatred and wishes for the death of our troops and the death of children as I showed by the signs they hold up at their protests, in my follow up piece.

The Westboro Baptist Church (WBC) does exactly that on a page that is headed with "Thank God for Katrina".

New Orleans, symbol of America, seen for what it is: a putrid, toxic, stinking cesspool of fag fecal matter.

America is irreversibly doomed. It is a sin to pray for the good of this evil fag nation.

Pray for more dead bodies floating on the fag-semen-rancid waters of New Orleans.


Those statements were all highlighted on the Katrina page.

Here is a video on their site. Watch the cop in this. He is disgusted.

On the page that shows what this disgusting, pathetic group, is about it says:

WBC engages in daily peaceful sidewalk demonstrations opposing the homosexual lifestyle of soul-damning, nation-destroying filth. We display large, colorful signs containing Bible words and sentiments, including: GOD HATES FAGS, FAGS HATE GOD, AIDS CURES FAGS, THANK GOD FOR AIDS, FAGS BURN IN HELL, GOD IS NOT MOCKED, FAGS ARE NATURE FREAKS, GOD GAVE FAGS UP, NO SPECIAL LAWS FOR FAGS, FAGS DOOM NATIONS, THANK GOD FOR DEAD SOLDIERS, FAG TROOPS, GOD BLEW UP THE TROOPS, GOD HATES AMERICA, AMERICA IS DOOMED, THE WORLD IS DOOMED, etc.


On their front page, under the "featured posts" label, some of the headlines read:

Thank God for the California fires
Typical fag-ass American soldiers

If you need any further proof of how sick and twisted these people are, then just click and go to their site, see how much you can read before feeling sick to your stomach.


Click, go see my follow up piece and scroll to the bottom and see some of the signs they march with, some of the hatred they have children holding up at their protests.

I am glad Mr. Snyder won his lawsuit. It is time someone teach these hate filled people, that hide behind "religion" to spew their hate speech, time for them to understand that families have the right to bury their children, their spouses and their family members in peace and with dignity and mourn with having those funerals turned into a circus.

Portions of this post are cross posted at Stop the ACLU.

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Hillary Clinton Flipped, then Flopped and Now Does a Backflip

Sometimes when you screw up badly enough, you need to just sit down, shut up and pray to high heaven that people will forget about it.

Not Hillary Clinton...oh no.

After her flip flopping, in last nights debate, on the question of Spitzer's plan to give illegal immigrant a drivers license and then being called out on it on national television, we see reports now that she has flip flopped yet again!!!

Lets recap the ORIGINAL FLIP....

Russert: Senator Clinton, Governor of New York Eliot Spitzer has proposed giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants. He told the Nashua, New Hampshire, Editorial Board it makes a lot of sense.

Why does it make a lot of sense to give an illegal immigrant a driver's license?

Clinton: Well, what Governor Spitzer is trying to do is fill the vacuum left by the failure of this administration to bring about comprehensive immigration reform. We know in New York we have several million at any one time who are in New York illegally. They are undocumented workers. They are driving on our roads. The possibility of them having an accident that harms themselves or others is just a matter of the odds. It's probability.

So what Governor Spitzer is trying to do is to fill the vacuum. I believe we need to get back to comprehensive immigration reform because no state, no matter how well intentioned, can fill this gap. There needs to be federal action on immigration reform.

Russert: Does anyone here believe an illegal immigrant should not have a driver's license?

(Unknown): Believe what?

Russert: An illegal immigrant should not have a driver's license.

Dodd: This is a privilege. And, look, I'm as forthright and progressive on immigration policy as anyone here. But we're dealing with a serious problem here, we need to have people come forward. The idea that we're going to extend this privilege here of a driver's license I think is troublesome, and I think the American people are reacting to it.

We need to deal with security on our borders. We need to deal with the attraction that draws people here. We need to deal fairly with those who are here.

But this is a privilege. Talk about health care, I have a different opinion. That affects the public health of all of us.

But a license is a privilege, and that ought not to be extended, in my view.

THEN THE FLOP:

Clinton: Well, I just want to add, I did not say that it should be done, but I certainly recognize why Governor Spitzer is trying to do...


Now the FLIPPED FLOPPED BACKFLIP:

A day after she appeared to struggle to give her views on the subject, Hillary Rodham Clinton offered support today for Gov. Eliot Spitzer’s effort to award New York driver’s licenses to illegal immigrants, as her campaign sought to contain potentially damaging fallout from a what her own supporters saw as a tense and listless debate performance.

Mrs. Clinton’s statement affirming her support of Mr. Spitzer in his office came less than a day after she offered a muddled and hesitant position on the bill, prompting a round of denunciations by her opponents. It signaled the extent to which her advisers viewed that moment as the biggest misstep she made in the debate, and one with long-term potential to undermine her candidacy.

“Senator Clinton supports governors like Governor Spitzer who believe they need such a measure to deal with the crisis caused by this administration’s failure to pass comprehensive immigration reform,’” her campaign said.

Mrs. Clinton’s aides said her statement was intended to signal that she broadly supported Mr. Spitzer’s goal of awarding driver’s licenses to illegal immigrants. Mr. Spitzer initially proposed a blanket program of awarding full-fledged driver’s licenses to illegal immigrants; in the face of sharp opposition from the Legislature, he backed off and presented a two-tier program system of awarding licenses to illegal immigrants.


In less that 24 hours, Hillary Clinton has said she likes the idea, implied she agreed, then when criticized on stage for agreeing, stated very clearly "Well, I just want to add, I did not say that it should be done, but I certainly recognize why Governor Spitzer is trying to do...", and now has changed her mind ones again.

Obama's senior Strategist:

“She is a habitual evader"


Ya think?

Giuliani:

And Rudolph W. Giuliani, the Republican presidential candidate who has spent more time attacking Mrs. Clinton than any of his opponents, pounced as he offered a preview of what a Clinton-Giuliani race might be like, should both win their party’s nomination, in a radio interview with Glenn Beck.

“You know, she was being attacked all night for taking different positions in front of different audiences and then by the end of the night, she took different positions in front of the same audience,” he said. “It was pretty amazing. I mean, in politics I’ve never quite seen that before.”


Flip flopping like a fish out of water and Hillary Clinton is starting to stink just as badly.

.

Matthew Margolis & Mark Noonan File FEC Complaint Against Hillary Clinton

About damn time someone did it.

Flashback to some previous posts of ours listing some of the most egregious connections Hillary Clinton has with Campaign finance problems, corruption and fraud.

As I said yesterday, in reference to why Tom Cole, GOP strategist was smiling:

With her massive connections to crooks, (Hsu to name just one) corruption (NJ Mayor to name just one of her corrupt supporters), court cases where she will have to testify, her ability to pander to anyone and any time without regard to principle, her flip flopping and that fact that she already holds a 48% disapproval rating and most everyone already knows her name and has an "opinion" one way or another-- her supposed shoe in candidacy will probably be the most fatal error on the Democratic side before the 2008 elections.

[...]

With that said, do not forget to stop by facebook and join "Stop Hillary Clinton (One Million Strong against Hillary)" which as of right now has 452, 671 members from both sides of the aisle and independents. (When I joined on September 25, 2007, there was only 421,000+, so you can see how that movement is growing fast).


If a person, Hillary Clinton to be specific, keeps surrounding herself with criminals, corrupt officials, convicted felons and proven liars, it is only fair that she be associated with them closely.


Those links above have details on all the aforementioned criminal associations that Hillary Clinton has. We have asked dozens of times when the proper authorities are going to start investigating her.

Now we see that finally, someone has filed a FEC complaint against Hillary to spur such an investigation into her campaign finances.

From Blogs for Bush:

With the complaint filed, Hillary's campaign has 15 days to respond.

Here is the text of our complaint:

October 31, 2007

Office of General Counsel
Federal Election Commission
999 E Street, NW
Washington, DC 20463

Dear Counsel:

We write to file a complaint against the Hillary Clinton for President Committee for violation of Federal Election Law under the Commission's jurisdiction.

It is clear from recent news accounts that the campaign and its donors and fundraisers have violated 2 USC 441f, the provision of law that prohibits campaign contributions in the name of another, and that some donors may have violated 2 USC 441e which prohibits donations by foreign nationals without permanent resident status.

A recent Los Angeles Times article, [available here], indicates that several reported donors to the Clinton campaign are non-existent persons, illegal immigrants, or were reimbursed by others for contributions. The article documents several instances in which reported donors could not be found, even by those living at the same address reported in the campaign’s FEC filing:

The Times examined the cases of more than 150 donors who provided checks to Clinton after fundraising events geared to the Chinese community. One-third of those donors could not be found using property, telephone or business records. Most have not registered to vote, according to public records. […]

Of 74 residents of New York's Chinatown, Flushing, the Bronx or Brooklyn that The Times called or visited, only 24 could be reached for comment.

[…]

The tenement at 44 Henry St. was listed in Clinton's campaign reports as the home of Shu Fang Li, who reportedly gave $1,000. […]

A tenant living in the apartment listed as Li's address said through a translator that she had not heard of him, although she had lived there for the last 10 years.

Census figures for 2000 show the median family income for the area was less than $21,000. About 45% of the population was living below the poverty line, more than double the city average.

In the busy heart of East Broadway, beneath the Manhattan Bridge, is a building that is listed as the home of Sang Cheung Lee, also reported to have given $1,000. Trash was piled in the dimly lighted entrance hall. Neighbors said they knew of no one with Lee's name there; they knocked on one another's doors in a futile effort to find him.

Salespeople at a store on Canal Street were similarly baffled when asked about Shih Kan Chang, listed as working there and having given $1,000. The store sells purses, jewelry and novelty Buddha statues. Employees said they had not heard of Chang.

In yet another case, a “donor” denied ever giving money to the campaign:
Another listed donor, Yi Min Liu, said he did not make the $1,000 contribution in April that was reported in his name. He said he attended a banquet for Clinton but did not give her money.
The article also demonstrates that the Clinton campaign received large campaign contributions from illegal immigrants barred from contributing under Federal law:
One New York man who said he enthusiastically donated $2,500 to Clinton doesn't appear to be eligible to do so under federal election law. He said he came to the United States from China about two years ago and didn't have a green card.
These incidents are far from isolated occurrences at the fringes of the Clinton campaign. Campaigns routinely stay in close contact with their most prolific fundraisers and encourage them to raise even more money from associates. Community organizers even organized a fundraising event for Hillary Clinton that netted $380,000, implying substantial knowledge of and involvement in procuring these donations on the campaign’s part.

As Clinton campaign bundlers, these community leaders also placed improper pressure on those who could least afford to donate:

Clinton has enlisted the aid of Chinese neighborhood associations, especially those representing recent immigrants from Fujian province. The organizations, at least one of which is a descendant of Chinatown criminal enterprises that engaged in gambling and human trafficking, exert enormous influence over immigrants. The associations help them with everything from protection against crime to obtaining green cards.

Many of Clinton's Chinatown donors said they had contributed because leaders in neighborhood associations told them to. In some cases, donors said they felt pressure to give.

[…]

"Everybody was making a donation, so I did too," [He Duan Zheng] said. "Otherwise I would lose face."

The New York Post conducted a further examination of the Hillary Clinton for President Committee's campaign finance data. Their story is available here.

The New York Post story indicates that several unlikely donors, including cooks and dishwashers, made $1,000 contributions to the campaign.

A search of Chinatown donors yesterday by The Post found several bogus addresses and some contributions that raised eyebrows.

Shin K. Cheng is listed twice in federal records for giving $1,000 donations to Clinton's campaign on April 17.

But the address recorded on campaign reports is a clinic for sexually transmitted diseases, hemorrhoids and skin disease.

No one at the address knew of a Shin K. Cheng.

Another donation came from a Shih Kan Chang on Canal Street. But the address listed is a shop that sells knock-off watches and other pirated goods. The sales clerk there did not know the donor.

The investigation by the New York Post also found evidence of illegal “straw donations.”
Hsiao Yen Wang, a cook in Chinatown, is listed as giving Clinton $1,000 on April 13. Contacted yesterday, she told The Post she had written a check.

But it was on behalf of a man named David Guo, president of the Fujian American Cuisine Council, and Wang told The Post that Guo had repaid her for the $1,000 contribution.

In addition to the aforementioned evidence, it is worth noting that the Hillary Clinton for President Committee has clearly decided to take no action to remedy these violations. According to the New York Post, “The Clinton campaign dismissed the L.A. Times story as derogatory to Chinese-Americans.”

Accordingly, the Clinton campaign's disinterest in and failure to remedy these violations along with the potential scope of the abuse indicates that that the Commission should investigate and take action against those responsible for violation of the law.

The information in this complaint is based upon information and belief, and not on our personal knowledge.

Respectfully,

Matthew Margolis & Mark Noonan



From Patrick Ruffini:

This is really smart on Margolis and Noonan's part, who know the issue of Democrat corruption backwards and forwards as the authors of Caucus of Corruption. For about the time it would have taken to write a blog entry on this issue, they can demand real accountability from the Clinton campaign. I wish I'd thought of this.


I have seen comments elsewhere asking why they did not wait until after she was already officially named the Democratic presidential candidate after the primaries but as we all know, investigations take time and this is the perfect time for this.

It gives the FEC the time needed to delve into Hillary's campaign finances and to do a proper investigation.

Good job Matt and Mark.

.

Iraq Moving to Block Movement and Supplies of the Kurdish PKK

On the 23rd of October it was being reported that Iraqi officials were closing down the offices of the Kurdish rebel group the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) to stop them from operating in Iraq.

"The PKK is a terrorist organization and we have taken a decision to shut down their offices and not allow them to operate on Iraqi soil. We will also work on limiting its terrorist activities which are threatening Iraq and Turkey," a statement from Maliki's office said.

Protesters demonstrate against a possible major cross-border operation into northern Iraq by Turkey against Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) guerrillas, in front of the Turkish Consulate in Berlin October 27, 2007. Turkey has massed up to 100,000 troops on the frontier before a possible cross-border operation against about 3,000 PKK guerrillas, who launch deadly attacks into Turkey from Iraq. REUTERS/Pawel Kopczynski (GERMANY)


Today we see reports of further actions that Iraq is taking to avoid a Turkish incursion of Northern Iraq.

BAGHDAD - Iraq will set up more checkpoints along its northern frontier to keep out supplies for Kurdish rebels, who have been striking the Turkish military in raids across the border, the Iraqi foreign minister said Wednesday.

Hoshyar Zebari said Iraq would set up the checkpoints along with the border with heavily Kurdish southeastern Turkey to stop fuel, food and other supplies from reaching the Iraq-based Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK, which has killed dozens of people inside Turkey over the past month. He said they would also take other unspecified measures against the rebels.

Zebari, who is Kurdish, told reporters that Iraq would also restrict the movement of PKK fighters in order to "prevent them from reaching the populated towns and areas" inside Turkey.

The Iraqi official's comments came after he discussed the border issue with Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki in Baghdad.

Turkish helicopters have begun pounding rebel hideouts in Turkey with rockets, and Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Wednesday that his nation would exhaust all diplomatic options before ordering a cross-border offensive.

Zebari warned that a Turkish military incursion into northern Iraq would have "serious consequences for the entire region and could undermine its stability."

He said Iraq was ready "to cooperate actively with the Turkish government to find practical measures" to prevent the attacks staged by Kurdish rebels from Iraqi territory.


These are the types of actions that need to be taken by Iraq to show solidarity with Turkey against the PKK, which is listed as a terrorist group internationally by a number of states and organizations, including the USA, NATO and the EU.

Here is a list of who has the PKK listed as a terrorist organization:

* Austria
* Australia
* Azerbaijan
* Afghanistan
* Belgium
* Bulgaria
* Canada
* Cyprus
* Czech Republic
* Denmark
* Estonia
* Finland
* France
* Germany
* Greece
* Hungary
* Iceland
* Iraq
* Ireland
* Italy
* Kazakhstan
* Latvia
* Lithuania
* Luxembourg
* Malta
* Netherlands
* Northern Cyprus
* Norway
* Philippines
* Poland
* Portugal
* Romania
* Slovakia
* Slovenia
* Spain
* Sweden
* Syria
* Turkey
* United Kingdom
* United States

We, along with Britain has been encouraging Iraq to take tangible actions against the PKK to forestall the Turkish incursion, as evidence by a phone call that was reported by VOA between the U.S, Britain and Iraqi officials back on the 23rd of this month.

The United States and Britain made a joint call late Monday for Iraq to take immediate steps to halt cross-border attacks by Iraqi-based Kurdish PKK militants into Turkey. The issue dominated a Washington meeting between Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and British Foreign Secretary David Miliband. VOA's David Gollust reports from the State Department.

Rice and her British counterpart are welcoming statements by the Iraqi government condemning the attacks by the PKK.

But they say it is time for the government in Baghdad and the Kurdish regional authorities in northern Iraq to take tangible action to halt the PKK operations, which have raised the specter of large-scale Turkish military intervention in Iraq.

The joint appeal by Rice and Miliband capped a day of intensive diplomatic activity on the Iraq-Turkey crisis that included a telephone call by President Bush to Turkish President Abdullah Gul stressing the U.S. commitment to work with Turkey and Iraq to combat PKK attacks.

The PKK, the Kurdistan Workers Party, has long been listed by the United States as a terrorist organization. It has been fighting the Turkish government for Kurdish self-rule in southeastern Turkey for more than 20 years and has recently stepped up hit-and-run attacks against Turkish forces and civilians from mountain hideouts in northern Iraq.

Iraq has maintained that PKK militants are operating out of rugged border areas beyond the reach of its security forces, while Turkey alleges that Iraqi Kurdish authorities have turned a blind eye to PKK activities. At a joint press appearance with Rice, Foreign Secretary Miliband said Iraq's stated promises to deal with the PKK are no longer enough:

"Words are not going to be sufficient," said David Miliband. "There needs to be real deeds. The hurt and anguish of the Turkish people is real and evident to anyone who looks at the situation."

Miliband said Iraqi action is essential if the Turkish government is to be able to resist public pressure to intervene in Iraq, action that U.S. officials say could shatter the relative peace of northern Iraq and have broader security and political consequences.


This is a developing story....

Democratic Debate:Hillary Clinton Stands on Principle

[Update Below]

I didn't watch the debate last night, so I have just gone through the transcripts of the debate and I stand by what I have said so many times about Hillary Clinton.

MSNBC Transcript here and NYT here.

She does have one clear principle she stands by to a fault.

Politics and political posturing and never giving a straight answer.

What I mean is that until now she has been able to go anywhere and say whatever that particular audience wants to hear to grab that next vote, then she follows up by going elsewhere and telling them what they want to hear, whether it matches her previous positions or not.

Very rarely do you see her cornered.

Because this is one of those rare times where she is cornered on a number of issues, I am focusing on her in this post, plus I have stated repeatedly her at Wake up America, that barring any completed investigations that connect her to the campaign fraud, corruption and finance laws, in a legal manner, she will be the candidate the Republicans end up having to run against. (Unless she performs in the remaining debates as badly as she did here)

Last night she got cornered and her flip flopping and beating around the bush answers, that never really answer the original question, is very clearly seen from the transcripts and by video. (Hot Air via Michelle Malkin uploaded a Youtube video)

Lets start with the video, then below it will be the portion of transcript that is shown in the video.



Russert: Senator Clinton, Governor of New York Eliot Spitzer has proposed giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants. He told the Nashua, New Hampshire, Editorial Board it makes a lot of sense.

Why does it make a lot of sense to give an illegal immigrant a driver's license?

Clinton: Well, what Governor Spitzer is trying to do is fill the vacuum left by the failure of this administration to bring about comprehensive immigration reform. We know in New York we have several million at any one time who are in New York illegally. They are undocumented workers. They are driving on our roads. The possibility of them having an accident that harms themselves or others is just a matter of the odds. It's probability.

So what Governor Spitzer is trying to do is to fill the vacuum. I believe we need to get back to comprehensive immigration reform because no state, no matter how well intentioned, can fill this gap. There needs to be federal action on immigration reform.

Russert: Does anyone here believe an illegal immigrant should not have a driver's license?

(Unknown): Believe what?

Russert: An illegal immigrant should not have a driver's license.

Dodd: This is a privilege. And, look, I'm as forthright and progressive on immigration policy as anyone here. But we're dealing with a serious problem here, we need to have people come forward. The idea that we're going to extend this privilege here of a driver's license I think is troublesome, and I think the American people are reacting to it.

We need to deal with security on our borders. We need to deal with the attraction that draws people here. We need to deal fairly with those who are here.

But this is a privilege. Talk about health care, I have a different opinion. That affects the public health of all of us.

But a license is a privilege, and that ought not to be extended, in my view.

Clinton: Well, I just want to add, I did not say that it should be done, but I certainly recognize why Governor Spitzer is trying to do...

(Unknown): Wait a minute...

Clinton: And we have failed. We have failed.

Dodd: No, no, no. You said -- you said yes...

Clinton: No.

Dodd: ... you thought it made sense to do it.

Clinton: No, I didn't, Chris. But the point is, what are we going to do with all these illegal immigrants who are driving...

Dodd: That's a legitimate issue. But driver's license goes too far, in my view.

Clinton: Well, you may say that, but what is the identification?

If somebody runs into you today who is an undocumented worker...

Dodd: There's ways of dealing with that.

Clinton: Well...

Dodd: This is a privilege, not a right.

Clinton: Well, what Governor Spitzer has agreed to do is to have three different licenses, one that provides identification for actually going onto airplanes and other kinds of security issues, another which is another ordinary driver's license, and then a special card that identifies the people who would be on the road, so...

Dodd: That's a bureaucratic nightmare.

Clinton: ... it's not the full privilege.

Russert: Senator Clinton, I just want to make sure of what I heard. Do you, the New York senator, Hillary Clinton, support the New York governor's plan to give illegal immigrants a driver's license?

You told the New Hampshire paper that it made a lot of sense. Do you support his plan?

Clinton: You know, Tim, this is where everybody plays "gotcha." It makes a lot of sense. What is the governor supposed to do? He is dealing with a serious problems. We have failed. And George Bush has failed. Do I think this is the best thing for any governor to do? No. But do I understand the sense of real desperation, trying to get a handle on this? Remember, in New York, we want to know who's in New York. We want people to come out of the shadows.

He's making an honest effort to do it. We should have passed immigration reform.



Notice that Hillary Clinton still never gave a yes or no answer.

This is typical Hillary.

That particular exchange was found on page 20-21 of the MSNBC transcript.

Edwards and Obama did chime in here to point out how she never gave a direct answer and simply danced around the topic.

Edwards: For children? To try to protect children -- using technology to protect children, I would.

I want to add something that Chris Dodd just said a minute ago, because I don't want it to go unnoticed. Unless I missed something, Senator Clinton said two different things in the course of about two minutes just a few minutes ago.

And I think this is a real issue for the country. I mean, America is looking for a president who will say the same thing, who will be consistent, who will be straight with them. Because what we've had for seven years is double-talk from Bush and from Cheney, and I think America deserves us to be straight.

Williams: Senator Obama, why are you nodding your head?

Obama: Well, I was confused on Senator Clinton's answer. I can't tell whether she was for it or against it. And I do think that is important. One of the things that we have to do in this country is to be honest about the challenges that we face.

Immigration is a difficult issue. But part of leadership is not just looking backwards and seeing what's popular or trying to gauge popular sentiment. It's about setting a direction for the country. And that's what I intend to do as president.



Before we start going through some of the questions asked of Clinton that required her to actually take a stand, which she managed to never actually do, let me say this is the first transcript of a Democratic Debate where the candidates actually went for her throat and called her out on her inconsistencies and about damn time they did.

The first example of Clinton avoiding (by invoking Bush and how horrible he is....always popular in a Democratic debate) having to answer a direct question and having to be asked it again and still not answering it directly starts on page three of the MSNBC transcript and carries on to page four. (Note, Obama also avoided answering directly)

They are asking Hillary where her "red line" would be regarding Iran.

(Question--"Red line" is the current expression of the moment where Iran is concerned in Washington. What would your red line be concerning when to, if to attack Iran? What would make it crystal-clear in your mind that the United States should attack Iran)

Williams: Same question to Senator Clinton. What would be your red line?

Clinton: Well, first of all, we have to try diplomacy, and I see economic sanctions as part of diplomacy. We have used it with other very difficult situations -- like Libya, like North Korea. I think that what we're trying to do here is put pressure on the Bush administration. Joe is absolutely right. George Bush can do all of this without anybody. You know, that is the great tragedy and that's why we've got to rein him in, and that's why we need Republican support in the Congress to help us do so.

I invite all of our colleagues to pass something immediately that makes it very clear: He has no authority and we will not permit him to go take offensive action against Iran. But what we're trying to do is push forward on vigorous diplomacy. That has been lacking. I believe we should be engaged in diplomacy right now with the Iranians.

Everything should be on the table, not just their nuclear program. I've been advocating this for several years. I believe it strongly.

But I also think when you go to the table to negotiate with an adversarial regime, you need both carrots and sticks. The Revolutionary Guard is deeply involved in the commercial activities of Iran. Having those economic sanctions hanging over their heads gives our negotiators one of the set of sticks that we need to try to make progress in dealing with a very complicated situation.

Everybody agrees up here that President Bush has made a total mess out of the situation with Iran. What we're trying to do is to sort our way through to try to put diplomacy, with some carrots and some sticks, into the mix and get the president to begin to do that.




Anyone spot the "red line", no? No worries, Williams' didn't see it either, so he, respectfully, asked the questions again.

Williams: Respectfully, Senator, same question though: Do you have a threshold, a red line beyond which...

Clinton: I want to start diplomacy. I -- you know, I am not going to speculate about when or if they get nuclear weapons.

We're trying to prevent them from getting so. We're not, in my view, rushing to war. We should not be doing that, but we shouldn't be doing nothing, and that means we should not let them acquire nuclear weapons. And the best way to prevent that is a full court press on the diplomatic front.




Again, no red line, so we, like the debate will move on.

(Sidenote: Richardson would negotiate with Iran with no conditions and we all know how that has turned out in the past. How do you negotiate when only one party is speaking in good faith and the other has already proven it will smile and lie to your face then go about doing what they want anyway?)

Next is a perfect example of Hillary not answering the question posed to her but answering the question she wanted to be posed to her.

Russert: I want to ask each of you the same question.

Senator Clinton, would you pledge to the American people that Iran will not develop a nuclear bomb while you are president?

Clinton: I intend to do everything I can to prevent Iran from developing a nuclear bomb.

Russert: But you won't pledge?

Clinton: I am pledging I will do everything I can to prevent Iran from developing a nuclear bomb.

Russert: But, they may.

Clinton: Well, you know, Tim, you asked me if I would pledge, and I have pledged that I will do everything I can to prevent Iran from developing a nuclear bomb.



(Side note: Not one of them could pledge to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon. As we pointed out yesterday, we have time to make diplomacy work, but the question of what to do when their is no diplomatic measures left and no time left, never gets answered by any of the Democratic candidates.

With yesterdays Zogby poll showing 52% of the likely voters support military action against Iran if it becomes necessary, this is one prime example of why Democrats have been known and will continue to carry the stigma of "weak on National Security".)

To give Russert his due, he did bring up the topic of Hillary Clinton claiming 35vast years of experience but then her "husband" not allowing the the release of her records during the White House time to be released until 2012.

Russert: Senator Clinton, I'd like to follow up, because in terms of your experience as first lady, in order to give the American people an opportunity to make a judgment about your experience, would you allow the National Archives to release the documents about your communications with the president, the advice you gave?

Because, as you well know, President Clinton has asked the National Archives not to do anything until 2012.

Clinton: Well, actually, Tim, the Archives is moving as rapidly as the Archives moves. There's about 20 million pieces of paper there. And they are move, and they are releasing as they do their process. And I am fully in favor of that.

Now, all of the records, as far as I know, about what we did with health care, those are already available. Others are becoming available. And I think that, you know, the Archives will continue to move as rapidly as its circumstances and processes demand.

Russert: But there was a letter written by President Clinton specifically asking that any communication between you and the president not be made available to the public until 2012. Would you lift that ban?

Clinton: Well, that's not my decision to make, and I don't believe that any president or first lady ever has. But, certainly, we're move as quickly as our circumstances and the processes of the National Archives permits.




Obama jumps right on that, which is good, because it is important that people understand that she is hiding the proof of her experience or lack of and god only knows what else is being hidden in those archives, at the same time as she is asking people to "look at her experience".

Russert: Senator Obama, your hand is up?

Obama: Well, look, I'm glad that Hillary took the phrase "turn the page." It's a good one, but this is an example of not turning the page. We have just gone through one of the most secretive administrations in our history.

And not releasing, I think, these records at the same time, Hillary, that you're making the claim that this is the basis for your experience, I think, is a problem.

Part of what we have to do is invite the American people back to participate in their government again. Part of what we need to do is rebuild trust in our government again.

And that means being open and transparent and accountable to the American people......


Good for Obama...it is time for Hillary to stop hiding behind her husband and have the courage to make that information available and let the chips fall where they may. By not releasing those papers she is simply inviting the question "what is she hiding?"

Russert then points to a situation, the type I referred to at the beginning of this post where Hillary Clinton says one thing to one audience, then gets caught saying the opposite to other people.

Back to that one principle Hillary stands for and that is saying whatever an audience wants to hear whether she means it or not.

Russert: Senator Clinton, I want to clear something up which goes to the issue of credibility. You were asked at the AARP debate whether or not you would consider taxing, lifting the cap from $97,500, taxing that, raising more money for Social Security. You said, quote, "It's a no." I asked you the same question in New Hampshire, and you said "no."

Then you went to Iowa and you went up to Tod Bowman, a teacher, and had a conversation with him saying, "I would consider lifting the cap perhaps above $200,000." You were overheard by an Associated Press reporter saying that.

Why do you have one public position and one private position?

Clinton: Well, Tim, I don't. I have said consistently that my plan for Social Security is fiscal responsibility first, then to deal with any long-term challenges which I agree are ones that we are going to have to address.

We would have a bipartisan commission. In the context of that, I think all of these would be considered. But, personally, I do not want to balance Social Security on the backs of our seniors and middle-class families. That's why I put fiscal responsibility first, because we have to change the Bush tax cuts, which I am committed to doing.

We have to move back toward a more fair and progressive tax system, and begin once again to move toward a balanced budget with a surplus. You know, part of the idea in the '90s was not just so Bill would have a check mark next to his name in history, but so that we would have the resources to deal with a lot of these entitlement problems.

George Bush understood that. The Republicans understood that. They wanted to decimate that balanced budget and a surplus because they knew that that would give them a free hand to try to privatize Social Security.

I am not going to be repeating Republican talking points. So when somebody asks me, would something like this be considered, well, anything could be considered when we get to a bipartisan commission. But personally, I am not going to be advocating any specific fix until I am seriously approaching fiscal responsibility.

Russert: But you did raise it as a possibility with Tod Bowman?

Clinton
: Well, but everybody knows what the possibilities are, Tim. Everybody knows that. But I do not advocate it. I do not support it. I have laid out what I do believe, and I am going to continue to emphasize that.

I think, for us to act like Social Security is in crisis is a Republican trap. We're playing on the Republican field. And I don't intend to do that.

Page 16-17 of the MSNBC transcript shows us how Hillary once again beats around the Bush instead of answering directly and forces Russert to re-ask the question in a direct manner.

Russert: I'd like to talk about taxes.

Senator Clinton, I'd like to start with you. Because the chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, Charlie Rangel, is a strong supporter of your campaign.

He wants to repeal the Alternative Minimum Tax. But he also wants to have a 4 percent surtax on a single $150,000 income or $200,000 married couple.

You went to Harlem with your husband, with Charlie Rangel. And the former president said, quote, "Charlie Rangel wants me to pay more taxes so you can pay less and I think that's a good idea."

Is that also your view?



Clinton: Well, I am a great admirer of Chairman Rangel. And what he's trying to do is deal with a very serious problem. You know, the Alternative Minimum Tax was never intended to hit people are in middle income, upper middle income. It was meant for people who are rich and evading taxes.

Now I don't know all the details of what Charlie is recommending, but I certainly agree with the goal. We've got to do something with the Alternative Minimum Tax.

There are a lot of ways of getting there. I want it to be fair and progressive. It starts in the House, it starts in the Ways and Means Committee, which he chairs. But I think my husband was expressing an opinion that a lot of people who have been very fortunate and blessed over the last six and a half years feel.

You know, we've not been asked to sacrifice anything. You know, young men and women wearing the uniform of our country are dying and being maimed. We have the average American family losing a thousand dollars in income, and George Bush and his cronies can't figure out how they can give even more tax cuts to the wealthiest of Americans.

Now, I never thought Bill and I would be in that category, to be honest with you. So it's kind of a new experience. But it's not one that make us very comfortable, because we should be investing in new energy, we should be investing in college affordability, universal pre-K, the kind of health care plan that I've outlined.

That's what we intend to do. But we're going to have to deal with the AMT, something that the Republicans have refused to do because, very frankly, it hits people who are below their concern. They're concerned about the real top wage earners. This hits people that are, you know, the police chief. This hits people that are, you know, two income families that are doing well.

So we're going to have to do something about it. I think Charlie's being very courageous in moving forward. I don't agree with all the details, but he's on the right track to say we've got to do something about the AMT.

Russert: So in principle, you would be in favor of looking at a 4 percent surtax?

Clinton: No, I didn't say that, Tim. I said that I'm in favor of doing something about the AMT. How we do it and how we put the package together everybody knows is extremely complicated.

It's not going to happen while George Bush is president. Everybody knows that. I want to get to a fair and progressive tax system. The AMT has to be part of what we try to change when I'm president.

And there are a lot of moving pieces here. You know, there are kinds of issues we're going to deal with as the tax cuts expire.

I want to freeze the estate tax at the 2009 level of $7 million for a couple.

There's a lot of moving parts. So I'm not going to get committed to a specific approach, but I applaud Chairman Rangel for beginning the conversation.


It is simply amazing to watch her speak out of both sides of her mouth and imply so much without ever saying anything or taking a stand one way or another.

The Politico put it well in regards to Hillary Clinton:

We now know something that we did not know before: When Hillary Clinton has a bad night, she really has a bad night.


Some reactions from around the blogosphere about the debate last night, include but are not limited to:

Screw Politically Correct B.S.

Leading in the polls, the darling of the media, Hillary Clinton faced her toughest bitch slapping last night and failed to deliver.

"....she continued her strategy of avoiding direct answers to questions: She wouldn't say how she would address Social Security; she declined to pledge whether she would stop Iran from developing a nuclear weapon, or say whether she supports giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants.


Instead she tried to tried to turn every issue into an argument against President Bush. She said Bush's name 25 times, more than all six of her rivals combined."


The Hill's Pundit Blog:

It came about because Sen. Chris Dodd (D-Conn.) had the courage to defy the uni-speak of the Democratic debates, where everybody agrees with everybody else, and spoke out against the proposal to give licenses to illegal immigrants. Hillary, suddenly realizing how exposed she was by her seeming endorsement of New York Gov. Eliot Spitzer’s plan on illegals, backtracked and pointed out that she had not explicitly endorsed the plan. It was her equivalent of Bill saying that it depended on what the definition of “is” is. It was a Hillary moment, and her parsing and mincing of the vocabulary to have it both ways was on full public display. Caught, she retreated to the claim that everybody was playing “gotcha” — but, indeed, she had been got!

Let Freedom Ring:

I doubt that this will keep her from winning the Democratic nomination. I’m equally certain that that night’s performance will show up in the GOP’s candidate’s ad campaign. Hillary’s panderfest on the stage at Drexel last night will offer a stark contrast to Rudy Giuliani’s forthrightness. You can disagree with Rudy on certain issues. It’s even fair to say that he’s had a few missteps.

This wasn’t a policy disgreement with Hillary and it wasn’t that she misstated what she meant to say. She said what she meant to say. Unfortunately for her, someone caught her doing what she’s done consistently. Hillary’s tried being all things to all people in the hopes of maximizing her vote totals.

That’s the wrong thing to do this year. People are looking for a leader who’s straight with them, who won’t talk out of both sides of their mouth. That won’t be good for Hillary because she’s nothing if not a panderer.


Flopping Aces:

We're talking about a woman who has had one single goal her entire life and endured marrying a hack like Bill Clinton to get there. She's a robot who will say anything, do anything, to get in that Oval Office. Consequences be damned.

She was not prepared for this question, incredibly, and showed her true self. An indecisive, cranky, unlikable person.


MYDD:

The consistent thread throughout the debate was clearly Clinton's "double talk." Both Obama and Edwards attacked her on it early on and she exhibited signs of it in a couple of answers, but she might have escaped unscathed if not for her response to the illegal immigrant driver's license question. There, she basically proved the criticisms true. I agree with dday that it was just a horrible answer and probably should hurt her, but will it? Is it her version of "I voted for it before I voted against it?" I don't know but I will say this is the first time I've left watching a debate feeling like Clinton is vulnerable. At the very least she was thrown off her game tonight, especially in the beginning.


Talk Left:

Advantage Obama here. Dodd took a position. Clinton doubletalked. Edwards did not even state his position, just attacked.


The Carpetbagger report
:

Oops. She said the plan makes a lot of sense, and defended Spitzer’s efforts, but then isn’t sure if the idea is any good? Clinton supports the policy, but won’t endorse the policy?


Andrew Sullivan:

The winner was clearly Edwards. He was concise, aggressive, completely right about Clinton and always on point. He seemed unafraid to take her on, while Obama was still playing a too-careful defense. If I were to give an instant sum-up of the debate - and I'm a blogger so it's my job - it would be that Clinton's profound weakness as a general election candidate was pretty badly exposed. And the main alternative just about survived as a credible presidential candidate.

In other words: a great night for the GOP.


The laugh of the day mindset, that the Democratic Candidates shouldn't go after Clinton on her flip flopping, on her beating around the Bush and on her countless other faults because it just isn't "progressive politics" and it is just so, so, so, so.... REPUBLICAN (ick)....LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

If one of the cardinal rules of progressive politics is that you never repeat the talking points by which your opponents beat up on your own party, then what are we to think of last night’s Democratic debate, in which a principal tactic used by some of the non-Clintons was to repeat Republican talking points about Hillary Clinton?


I am laughing so hard at that one.

[Update] Hillary does a backflip to her original position, she was for it before she was against it and now she is for it again.. all in 24 hours.

That has to be a record.

.